In large part, the debate focused on CU structure, profits and the industry's role in serving the underserved with the Salt Lake City banker surprisingly agreeing with Dollar on aspects of the CU mission and also praising the industry's lobbying prowess in Congress.

But later Simmons referred several times to an imminent "collapse" of the industry as consolidation picks up and more large CUs "morph" into bank-like institutions extending their reach beyond their charters and capital structure.

The Zions CEO also complained about CUs embarking on risky commercial loan ventures in real estate and other areas stressing the ABA will continue vigorous opposition to reg relief legislation in Congress because of provisions expanding CU loan powers.

Dollar, now a consultant who heads up his own Birmingham, Ala. firm, countered that banks with huge capital advantages should hardly be bothered by CU competition "when there is more than enough business to go around."

Though obviously biased, directors in the audience gave the debate edge to Dollar, who appeared more animated and aggressive, arguing there are numerous examples in business of for-profits competing successfully with nonprofits listing hospitals, utilities as well as telephone and electric farm co-ops.

So having for-profits and nonprofits side by side in the same industry is "hardly unique" adding he was "tired of the phrase, the level playing field," cited by Simmons.

The danger is, warned Dollar, that banks not only seek to upend the playing field, but seem bent on "driving to bulldoze it."

In his opening remarks, the ABA head was quick to say he is not anti-CU, finds the industry retains a "noble legacy" and yet he is fiercely "anti-tax break." Striking the polite tone, Dollar expressed his sympathy to Simmons on the loss of his father, Roy, a founder of Zions First NB who died in May.

Responding to pre-written audience questions handed out by debate moderator Ben Rogers, Simmons at one point agreed that community banks and CUs are much alike suggesting with a smile he would welcome those CUs giving up their tax-exemptions to convert to banks. And he also said banks would welcome the sale of CU card portfolios.

Citing capital factors, Simmons later deflected questions on why there are no banks converting to CU charters in spite of the tax-exempt advantage touted so often by the ABA.

Dollar suggested banks and CUs should be working side by side for the common good "rather than fire weapons at each other" pointing to cooperation on bankruptcy and Bank Secrecy Act legislation.

Simmons maintained CUs have a "clear advantage" in not having to comply with the Community Reinvestment Act, but Dollar said community banks should be relieved of CRA requirements. This is one area where CUs and banks "can work together to ease regulations" instead of the banking industry working so hard to impose them on CUs.

"There's no need for a 'misery loves company' approach," said Dollar.

Rogers, the moderator and editor of CEO Report, a Rockville, Md. newsletter whose parent firm annually sponsors the directors meeting, said the debate was being conducted to shed light on "the future of credit unions." He said the purpose was not to stage a "spectacle." He introduced Simmons as CUs' "pre-eminent critic."

Simmons steps down from the ABA helm in October.

Some conference attendees complained privately that the shortness of the debate as well as the strict Q&A rules set down by the moderator discouraged providing any in-depth examination of the issues separating banks and CUs.

"I really hate to give Simmons another platform," declared Philip Hart, president/CEO of Tulsa Federal Employees CU in Oklahoma. "Something like this just stirs people up."

Still others liked the debate idea and found it valuable on several fronts including giving directors a lesson in the need for grassroots political advocacy after hearing the banker message.

Doug Roth, CEO of United Services CU in Asheville, N.C., said he found the banker arguments about the tax-exemption tiring. "I've been in the business 16 years and it's the same refrain" asking didn't "we have this before with Jim Blaine?" a reference to a banker/CU duel at a CUNA conference with the CEO of State Employees CU of Raleigh.

"I'm simply amazed that Simmons would even come into this hall knowing the kind of reception he's going to get," opined Ben Davis, director of Railroad & Industrial FCU of Tampa, Fla.

David Davidson, director of Priority One CU in Pasadena, Calif., summed up his feelings about the debate this way: "I'd call the whole thing a friendly discussion of two gentlemen who agreed to disagree but I'd certainly say the 'Debate of the Year' was not the diabolical plot of the evil empire exposed."

Davidson went on to challenge a Simmons claim that CUs in other countries have eliminated their tax-exemption and operate successfully, citing Australia as an example.

"Do you know what happened to the credit unions in Australia?" he asked a reporter. "They've been decimated." Davidson went on to add that the debate illustrates why CUs "must support the public awareness programs of our leagues that promote grassroots support because credit unions will not keep their tax-exempt status unless we have the active support of our communities."

Perhaps not surprisingly, given the audience had directors from so many small CUs, Simmons' comments about large CUs becoming more bank-like resonated with several directors in the hall.

One Midwest director who asked for anonymity said, "in my state, we have one credit union that is so big decisions are now made at the main office just like a bank and where you've lost that personal touch. We are still small and I think now we're going to market that difference locally."